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360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

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360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:03 pm

What is going on with this? I have heard that there is a Bureau of Reclamation Plan to close 360 acres of backwaters on the river, Rotenone (poison) the fish in them, and then use them to grow endangered minnows.

Anybody have anything further to add?

Poisoning 360 acres of the river scares the heck out of me. How are they going to not spread poison through out the river? Its my undertanding that in conditions like in our river it takes about as much as three days for the Rotenone to break down.

I suppose before I get worked up I should wait for more information, but its still some scary stuff.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby thunderchicken » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:18 am

I haven't heard anything about this. This does seem kinda scary as I don't know how you could control the spread as the current washes it all down river and into the canals. I wonder if this has anything to do with the recent dieoff of fish in the gila gravity canal? Seems very problematic to me.

8)
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:06 am

I do not think anything has happened yet. I sent a couple e-mails and made a couple phone calls and got the run around. Nobody denied it, but nobody would tell me anything either. One guy who is very concerned has promised to send me a synopsis and links to available BLM and BoR documents that support that this is going to happen. Like I said. I'm going to wait until I see more information before I get all worked up, but if its true YumaBassMan.com may change its title from Fishing Arizona & The Colorado River to Lets Save the Colorado River. From my one major source this is action brought about by the Endangered Species Act.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby saltcraw » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:42 am

There is a 50 year multi-agency plan for management of the river being formulated. It's called the Lower Colorado River Multi-Species Conservation Plan (LCRMSCP). The idea is to come up with a 50 year plan and get it approved and permitted instead of trying to get ESA permits every time they need to do something. Because various management practices will impact endangered species, the plan includes commitments to mitigate impacts to those species. One of the commitments is to preserve the endangered razorback sucker and try to minimize the potential for it to go extinct. Because razorback pretty much cannot survive in areas where the non-natives will prey on it (lm bass, fh catfish, stripers,) the plan is to isolate some back-waters and use them for razorback management. The last I heard, they were looking at some backwaters that were already isolated from the river and were not planning to use those which were being utilized for fishing. Seems like this may have changed from what I am hearing from some of the Yuma fishermen.

Sorry I don't know more, but I believe Raclamation may have a web site about the LCRMSCP.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby saltcraw » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:46 am

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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:33 am

Wow. I sure didn't find much in their notes on-line so far. Lots of "plan was approved language" without a lot of information about what "The Plan" is.

Looks like I might need to set aside a couple days to just make some sense of it all and track down what exactly is being approved in some of hese refferences. What a pain in the wazoo.

I suppose now is a good time for them to do this type of thing with so many struggling to just survive during this recession. Its hard for a guy to get worked up about fishing and water closures while he is trying to figure out how to keep his house.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:56 pm

From Game & Fish wrote:There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding on this issue. As far as trust goes, if you ask around and get to the bottom of things you will find that anglers did not know about this until our Yuma office contacted them to make sure they knew what was going on, and so we could get input to protect sportfish opportunity. We were scrambling under a tight timeline and could not do a really broad long-term outreach effort, but I think the first person we contacted was Bobbie McDermot n asked her to spread the word.

We are squarely behind protecting sportfishing, but you also need to be realistic that we have other constituency groups that we cannot simply dismiss. We also have laws that we have to follow, the endangered species act (ESA) being one of them. We cannot simply ignore the ESA and expect an acceptable outcome. If we do that, the ESA will be implemented through the court system and it is highly unlikely that anglers' input will be considered much at all. Our department is part of this issue and one of our priorities is to ensure sportmen are considered, and our approach is that it is much more effective to work from the inside.

This issue is about endangered native fish (razorback suckers and one of the chub species - I think bonytail), and the Lower Colorado River Multi-species Conservation Project (MSCP). The MSCP has a website with a ton of information in it:

http://www.lcrmscp.gov

In case you don't already know, the MSCP is a group of water users who have created this plan to address ESA issues. The MSCP constitutes an agreement with the USFW basically saying if the water users do this ESA work, the USFW will not interfere with their current water use. The water users include just about every city and irrigation district from Hoover Dam to Mexico. The list is also on the website:

http://www.lcrmscp.gov/steeringcmte/VotingMembers.pdf

Part of this plan is to restore 360 acres of native fish habitat from Hoover to Mexico. What we will see from Palo Verde dam down is much less. I do not remember exactly, but I think in the neighborhood of 100 acres. Additionally some of these acres are already done so we will be seeing even less. The decision has not been made yet on exactly where these will be. The AGFD put the breaks on when we realized they were doing their evaluation without talking to anglers. We contacted the anglers and met with them (one meeting at our office and one at a rod and gun club meeting - waterfowl hunters can also be effected), and got their input on the relative value of each individual backwater on the Arizona side. We then drafted a letter to MSCP with a number of recommendations:

1. They should involve the public in the first evaluation step in the future
2. We recommended that there are plenty of locations that do not have boat access now, and these should b the backwaters they develop (physically no access, or in the no entry part of Imperial refuge)
3. If they do develop a backwater that is currently fished, they should create openings and enhancement into some of the backwaters that don't have current access.

We do not know what the ultimate decision will be, but we know they are at least listening. Sportsmen are concerned about losing - they should be (the AGFD is). But we have to understand that we (AGFD and sportsmen) do not have veto power in this. When the MSCP is all the water users on the river, and then throw in the ESA, it will not be effective at all for us to simple say "no". We do that and we get ignored. Our approach is to make sure they know that these issues are important to sportsmen, and work with them to find the least harmful way for them to do what they are going to do regardless. Somewhere on their website is a report on their evaluation of the backwaters. It identifies backwaters that are heavily used by anglers, but was developed before we put the brakes on.

Our efforts to inform the angling public are obviously not effective. I will have my staff put together a brief document to more thoroughly explain what this is all about, post it on our website and get copies to you and others in the community. We cannot start until tomorrow, today is a state holiday.

Thank you for your interest in these issues, it is the passion of sportsmen tat make me optimistic that e will continue our hunting and angling traditions.


I would like to add that I contacted AzGFD about this before, and the answer seemed to minimize and dismiss this as overblown.

From Game & Fish - Same Source, but Several Weeks Ago wrote:The rumors are not true. What is actually happening is that under the Lower Colorado River Multi-Species Conservation Plan the Bureau of Reclamation (not BLM) is exploring the feasibility of using a small number (2?) of the backwaters as rearing ponds for native endangered species (razorback suckers and bonytail chub). If they identify appropriate backwaters it will likely be closed to fishing.

We are having a meeting today at 9:00 AM to get input on what backwaters are fished the most. It is our intent to first look at backwaters that are currently closed to anglers (refuge), and if they absolutely have to look at backwaters that are currently open they focus on the ones that see little use.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:24 pm

Somebody sent me this link today.

http://www.lcrmscp.gov/worktasks/conser ... ntory1.pdf

Before you download it I'll tell you its a 173 page document. I am reviewing it, but the person who sent it to me said,

Bob, take a look at this. From what I can tell, "Hidden" is Parallel,
"Secret" is Clear and there's a couple of other little holes that we
fish that they are looking at. Unfortunately they've rated Parallel and
Clear as highly suitable. By the way, good job of putting this on the
site.

Oh yeah, and cable is there too.


There may be more. I will be reviewing it myself when I have time to sit down and read it. You should too if you care about the river so you know first hand what is going on.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Gilmafam » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:13 am

Thanks for the info on the alleged closure and restrictions..... seems that there are places for the DFG's to do this with out shutting down all that acreage.... One site is the water storage area where the water comes out of Havasu.... before it heads to LA and Palm Springs.... I have seen this body of water many times as I travel into the hills when going to "BlackMeadows landing".... what a nice lake that no on fishes.... there are other places as well, but we will have to see what come from all of this....

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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby tommytheirish » Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:16 pm

I read a little about what the government is doing and it seems to be utilizing backwaters that haven't been fished in for some time... I'm not eager to lose valuable fishin' but these dirty ponds aren't worth saving garbage fish over... Frankly, let them grow some tree hugging enviromentalist fishies if they leave our wanted areas alone. How about that?
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Blind Squirrel » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:10 pm

tommytheirish wrote:I read a little about what the government is doing and it seems to be utilizing backwaters that haven't been fished in for some time... I'm not eager to lose valuable fishin' but these dirty ponds aren't worth saving garbage fish over... Frankly, let them grow some tree hugging enviromentalist fishies if they leave our wanted areas alone. How about that?


Really? I have gone into Clear Lake (Hidden Lake) many a time and seen two or three boats in there fishing, and have had to wait while another came in or went out before I could go through the entrance. The same with Parrallel and many others listed in that refference document. Even so, if I could get a guarantee that they would not come back next year for more restrictions and closures I would sign on whole heartedly in a second. The problem is that it doesn't work that way. Antis have learned that divide and conquer paired with small incremental gains will eventually take everything away from us.

Look at gun control. In the 1960s nobody really cared about losing automatic weapons. In the 1970s I heard people swear there would never be a national gun registration law. In the 1990s we saw it happen under the guise of Brady. Some communities are so anti now that you have leave home to buy a "legal" firearm.

Historically the antis will take away everything little by little and inch by inch. I heard a guy at a meeting somewhere say that the endangered species act would be used to close off waters and restrict all kinds of use of land and waters. He claimed that it was so written in the favor of the antis that it would be the worst piece of legislation ever passsed for outdoors users. I laughed at him. I think I even asked how saving a few minnows somewhere was going to close down the country. I was wrong. We are seeing it happen. One small step at a time, and when we as outdoorsmen do celebrate a victory... it really isn't. If looked at objectively all we have been doing for 40 years is fighting a holding action. We lose a few inches here, and we lose a few inches there, but then somewhere we manage to hold onto what we had for another day and we call it a victory. Its not. Its a stalemate at best, and they come back the next day or the next week or the next year with more money and more fanatics and they hit us again... and again... and again... We can't even be sure of fishing navigable waterways anymore.

Worse, we can't even stick together. Power boaters piss off bass anglers. Bass anglers piss off duck hunters. Duck hunters piss off land owners... oops. ATVers piss off hunters... it goes on and on. Then we piss on ourselves. Littering. Tearing up habitat with ATVs. Skirtering regs. Not even bothering to learn about the impact of our activities sometimes. Then you have guides buying up access rights and closing out the general public in some areas where access is restricted for a reason to limit damage. Nobody backed up trappers in 1993. Those are solitary guys and we don't know them so why fight for them. Well we lost 90% of trapping in Arizona effective January 1st 1994. Do you think any of those guys who don't fish are going to waste 1 second of their time backing us now?

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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:19 pm

Pat Barber the regional supervisor here for AzG&FD in this region sent me an e-mail the other day letting me know they are preparing a press release with refferences regarding this issue/process. As soon as I can get a copy I will post it here.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby Bob La Londe » Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:34 am

I have read a little more on this topic. I still have not received the game & fish report/press release, but there is a ton of info out there. Too much.

First off, there has not been adequate public information and discussion, and second you are wasting your time reading meeting agendas and summaries. Often decisions are made refferring to other things, and you have to work backwards through other meetings and reports to figure out what it was they were deciding on.

However, if you just read some of the reports like the one I linked to the other day you can learn quite a bit.

Its a fifty year plan that is not new. Yes its atleast in part an outreach of the Endangered Species Act. Many of the most powerful influences involved have only one goal. Maintaining their water rights. Its not a bad goal and ultimately in the scheme of things keeping water flowing to cities and farms is probably more important than recreational fishing. When it comes to the budget of Arizona Game & Fish outdoorsmen contribute quite a bit, but when compared to the money and power of farmers and cities and irrigation districts we aren't even a drop in the bucket. If they have to comply with the ESA to keep their water flowing, and that means we lose some or even all of our waters for fishing that is what is going to happen.

My problem is that I never even heard of the river area closures until this year. Something that is part of a well established 50 year plan that is already in the beginnings of the implementation stages. I go to outdoor club meetings. I read the newspaper. I watch the local news on TV. One person defended the plan and actions saying that there have been websites out there and the information has been available about this for a long time. OK. How do I as an outdoorsman even know to look or where to look?

It is big government and big money negotiating to make this happen. Can we stop it. No. Not a chance is Hades. What we can do is be there anytime there is an opportunity to offer public comment and set people straight about, "closing off a few waters that nobody fishes anyway." The fact is that any body of water open to the river gets fished, and regularly. I personally look for those openings. I've tucked one of my boats into every opening I could find off the river from the dam all the way to Adobe Lake and beyond. I have also studied the available aerial phtography. There are more bodies of water out there that really are closed off to the river that I have not been able to get into. Some are accessible by road, and I have heard the float tubers look for some of those to fish, but the reality is that there is no need to close off access to places like what we call Clear Lake (Hidden I believe) when right next to it there is another bigger lake that is totaly closed off to boat traffic. http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T ... Y=4571&W=1 If you look at this view you will see two lakes seperated by a channel where Yuma Wash flows into the river. The one on the right is called Clear Lake, although I think its historical name is Hidden Lake. The one on the left is called Yuma Wash Lake, although if you click over to the map it appears to be labeled as Clear Lake.

This is the kind of thing that we need to point out. It might tougher for them to do what they need to save their endangered minnows in that lake, but making choices like that will have a smaller negative economic impact on the outdoor community and the businesses that benefit from it. In the long term it will be a net gain for everybody. That is just one example. I have been told in no uncertain terms that fighting the process will just get steam rollered over. Even those who tend to try and dance around terms like that to mitigate confrontation have not managed to say anything to allay that opinion. However, we can try and become part of the process and speak up. Pointing out better alternatives for us.

Nobody has addressed my concerns about wide spread use of toxins to poison these backwaters as the seal them off, or how they can guarantee that it will not get into the river system. Municipalities may be able to hold off water usage for a couple days for it to break down. Their filtration purification and warning systems may even be adequate to deal with it in its still active form. Farmers may or may not be concerned about it getting into their fields, but I don't want it getting into our fish or the animals that will eat them when they die, and I sure don't want somebody eating the half dead crappie that nailed their jig while it still has Rotenone in its system. Like I said in the intro article on the home page of this site. Rotenone is "popularly" accepted to break down to harmless chemicals in 24 hours, but atleast one person has claim in high alkyloid waters like the river it can remain toxic for upto three days. Last I heard it takes less than 30 hours for a realease at Parker Dam to be at Imperial Dam.

I think we need more real and contemporary knowledge about current day to day plans regarding this. Updates on present decisions, more information, about how backwaters will be sterilized, and how they plan to guarantee that it will present zero risk to the public and the rest of the river, and how they plan to do things that will keep open the river and its backwaters to the general public. We need public outreach, not thousands and thousands of pages of meeting minutes, and reports to wade though on a goverment or organization website that we don't even know to look at until the implementation of such a wide reaching plan is imminent.

We need information and we need to speak up. We need to be there in numbers when there is a meeting, and we need to be prepared with solid arguements and palletable alternatives.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby thunderchicken » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:20 pm

I agree there is a lot to be concerned about and that trying to stop it is a waste of time and trying to mitigate the negative impacts of lost habitat and fishing resources is our best bet. I am very concerned about using toxins to kill off fish and having that pollution get into the ground water and commercial water system. To say it's safe because it breaks down to a safe level in a couple of days is not very convincing to me. How often are we told something is safe, yet to find out later that it wasn't? Levels of safety are always being revised and changed. It would seem that other programs not withstanding, the Environmental Protection Agency would, or at least should, be at the forefront of this project to insure and protect the health and safety of the public in implementing this plan. As someone that worked for the government ( yes, I was one of THEM ), I know that you can't do anything without the EPA and environmental impact studies being conducted and assurances being made that environmental concerns are being met. The long delay in construction of the oil refinery east of Yuma has been partially held up because of that along with other reasons. Maybe by pointing out and showing examples of why certain areas are best suited for use by this plan because they are not currently in use by the public or are already cut off from the river, it might be cheaper in the long run to use them than other areas because no access roads and facilities would have to be built.
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Re: 360 Acres of Backwaters to Be Closed ???

Postby saltcraw » Mon Oct 27, 2008 12:30 pm

I have to disagree a little bit here. I think as long as final site selection has not occurred, ( I don't know if it has or not) fishermen may be able to influence the process so that the lakes closed off and used for razorback rearing are not those we fish. Just need to start making some calls.
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